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on this episode of skeptical one of the

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things that surprise mean you've kind of

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touched on it is that the playfulness of

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it sometimes because you know the

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near-death experience again we kind of

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break it down and talk about it either

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medically or then people talk about it

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in this kind of hyped up spiritual sense

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you know of this great immense you know

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connection with spirit and love and hey

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that's in your accounts too but the

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other thing that comes through and your

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accounts is like you're saying just the

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playfulness hey I'm going to Las Vegas

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hey we need a fourth for the golf

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tournament what the heck is going on

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there what does that say about this

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other realm and how maybe we ought to

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feel about it mmm it's so true one of

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the stories I loved was from Carol and

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there's a account of her last words of

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her father who was a roofing contractor

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and she said he would awaken and look

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over at me and smile so big and he told

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me ah they have all these kitchen nets

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over there

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there were miles of miles of them and he

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would be helping build them all you know

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so the so it is there is a sense of

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almost joy and Wonder and awe and not

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always Mehta want to sugarcoat the

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experience of dying because there are

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people who also you know their last

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words are help me help me and that's

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Icarus and today

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really interesting interview Lisa smart

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who is a linguist from master's degree

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in Berkeley has written this book words

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at the threshold and for this book she

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collaborated with Raymond Moody famous

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Raymond Moody who kind of started the

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whole near-death experience thing way

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back and what they looked at was the

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words that people say when they're about

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to die in and around the time that

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they're dying so you've heard of like

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terminal lucidity and maybe you've heard

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of just some profound things that people

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say before they die others tons of these

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we almost all of us have family stories

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of this kind so she's taking a kind of

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discipline methodical look at what's

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being said and it's just fascinating it

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has huge implications for near-death

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experience but also obviously for

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science and this question of the

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afterlife and consciousness and

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particularly what I'm interested in you

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know what is the nature of these

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extended consciousness realms I think

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she raises some questions about that as

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well here's my interview with Lisa smart

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today we welcome Lisa smart - skeptic Oh

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Lisa's a linguist whose experiences with

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her dying father led her to this

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fascinating investigation into the

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unique communication that often happens

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when people are near-death she's just

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written a new book about this titled

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words at the threshold what we say when

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we're nearing death

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Lisa welcome - skeptic oh and thanks so

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much for joining me

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oh thanks for having me it's great to be

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here well this is exciting it's it's

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kind of new stuff it's going to be very

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much in the vein of other stuff we've

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talked about but you know the twist on

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it is that you're a linguist which I got

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to say when I first heard that I go yeah

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I know what a linguist is and I thought

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and I go no I don't I don't know is

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Oh what what is a linguist now I think a

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linguist is someone who's been trained

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in and is curious about the science of

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language so many of us go ahead and we

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speak and we come you know we speak with

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people but we don't think much about the

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patterns of language and oftentimes - we

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don't think about language that might

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frighten us or baffle us we just if we

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hear nonsense for example someone says

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something that makes no sense to us

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oftentimes we just disregard it but I

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was trained as a linguist that every bit

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of language is fascinating and worthy of

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study so part of how what I brought to

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this research is my training in

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analyzing language in terms of patterns

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and themes and approaching all language

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with a sense of curiosity and wonder as

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a scientist with would with any natural

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phenomena yeah it's it's really an

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interesting angle because when you think

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about it and you really talk about it in

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that way you kind of see where this

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language thing touches so many areas of

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science that we don't really think about

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but then when you think deeper you go oh

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yeah that is kind of curious I mean

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whether it's psychological or medical or

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I mean there's probably just educational

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there's so many different ways and then

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you've turned your lens to this

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near-death communication communication

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that happens right before death and it's

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a fascinating fascinating way to look at

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it so there's a ton of ways we could

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approach this you know we could look at

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it from and you hit all these in the

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book the book is quite comprehensive so

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we can look at it from the standpoint of

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evidence of an afterlife we can look at

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it from a grieving and what it means

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about the grief process how it ties into

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near-death experience or we can you know

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break down the details of this

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communication like you do in your book

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but there's also some great great little

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stories in the book but where I thought

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we might start is just with the story of

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your dad I mean he sounds like quite a

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character

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you had mentioned earlier about how this

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study of language overlaps and connects

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with so many other aspects of study and

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when I first heard changes in my

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father's language at the end of life I

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had never imagined that I would be

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someone who would then be talking about

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the afterlife I mean as a linguist it

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was something I never anticipated what

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happened with my father is he was a PhD

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psychologist very rationalist based you

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know someone who believed that this was

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it you know and he used to joke and call

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himself a gastronomical Jew which to him

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meant that his idea of God was you know

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corned beef sandwich and coleslaw on the

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side with a cream soda that he didn't

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believe anything anything beyond this so

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one of the things that happened as my

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father was dying the last three weeks he

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started talking about seeing angels and

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that just completely blew me away

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because he had never spoken that way

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before and I mean he didn't have any

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kind of quote supernatural or

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otherworldly belief so that was part of

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what began my interest in writing down

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everything he said listen let me ask you

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this question so at this point did y'all

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know your dad was gonna pass I mean was

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it in that kind of situation in what

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happened the last three weeks when I

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started hearing about the Angels for

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example we knew but the very first event

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that occurred where we didn't know that

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he was entering the dying phase was

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midnight on one night he walked out the

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front door in his underwear and January

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night believe me this was

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uncharacteristic of my father and he was

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getting treatment for prostate cancer

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but there was no indication that he was

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going to be dying if that's a pretty

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common procedure but there he started

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walking down the streets busy streets of

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Berkeley California and he started

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talking to the police about looking for

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the big art exhibition he had to bring

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boxes well of course the police were

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concerned and brought him home

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and we were baffled because my father

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his whole life helped my mother who was

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an artist bring boxes to our art

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exhibitions but obviously there was no

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art exhibition and there were no boxes

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in his hands had he been suffering from

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any kind of dementia before that or not

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at all not at all he was still actually

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working part time the week before he was

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getting treatment as I said and I think

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you know he had some mild medications

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and at first we thought oh my god it

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must be the medications but when I came

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to find out and I wrote down everything

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he said that night because my

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imagination was peaked as a daughter of

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course I was saddened as a linguist I

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was like wow what's going on here

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really really I mean at this point did

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that kind of linguist part of you kind

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of kick in that early and say what's

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going on which is great I mean I think

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that's really cool it's a that's a great

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question I think because of Who I am

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that when something scared me or baffled

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me my first place I would go was

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language that's just who I am right and

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and I don't think at that point I knew I

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was going to be studying final words per

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se but I wrote them down in my journal

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because I was curious about what was

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happening and also frightened right this

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was my father who was an intellectual

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and so articulate and lucid for all his

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life and even the week before but we

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came to find out later on that actually

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the announcement of a big event like my

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father announcing the big art exhibition

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is actually a very common pattern in the

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language of the dying well there's a

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bunch of patterns in that story it

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turned out to be important I mean that

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the metaphor is something that happens

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over and over again and events in their

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life that are kind of taught brought in

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I mean yeah it must have been like

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unsolvable yeah absolutely and this is

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what's so remarkable of remarkable about

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when we approach something metaphysical

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in a scientific or relatively scientific

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way because when you start looking at

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the data and you start looking at

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patterns well we may not have

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all the answers for why things happen

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but we can't deny that they do and so

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for example one of the things you had

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mentioned is this idea of a signature

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metaphor that there are certain symbols

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and metaphors that come up in the

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language of those who are dying and in

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my father's case

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was the art exhibition which was

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important part of his life with my

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mother and Geoffrey holder who was a

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dancer and choreographer his very final

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words where before he took his very last

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breath were arms two three turn to the

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right so it's remarkable we do seem to

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die as we live that we bring those

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symbols and metaphors of our lives into

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our final words in very very many cases

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and those signature metaphors appear as

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we talk about a large event that's

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coming up some people will start talking

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about a dance or a big dinner

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there were several transcripts of the

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big golf game right and poker games so

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it's it's really fascinating so that's

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just one of many aspects of the language

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of end of life so and I'm sorry I kind

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of may be sidetracked it a little bit

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because the story gets more and more

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interesting your dad gets closer to

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passing and the communication changes a

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little bit or deepens I don't know how

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00:12:00,800 --> 00:11:58,590
you want to say characterize it but it

275
00:12:04,540 --> 00:12:00,810
does fit into what the book is all about

276
00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:04,550
but then actually afterwards that whole

277
00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:08,040
series of events kind of spawns this

278
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:10,670
whole project that you got into right

279
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:13,530
absolutely you know that's exactly what

280
00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:15,450
happened he started speaking in nonsense

281
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:18,960
and for example he said things my

282
00:12:25,820 --> 00:12:22,320
modality is broken or introductory

283
00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:25,830
offers store is closing for food and

284
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:28,910
goods and I wrote that down and then

285
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:31,890
notice he started repeating himself and

286
00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:35,220
one thing that really caught my ear was

287
00:12:41,510 --> 00:12:38,460
he said to a second his secretary on the

288
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:41,520
phone Alice this is very interesting

289
00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:44,880
I've never done this before and this was

290
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:45,300
too

291
00:12:51,470 --> 00:12:48,420
before he died and I thought what is

292
00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:51,480
this this what is this this daddy that

293
00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:53,280
you're talking about why didn't why

294
00:12:58,900 --> 00:12:56,580
didn't he say dying is very interesting

295
00:13:01,850 --> 00:12:58,910
right was it because he was afraid am

296
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:01,860
afraid of to use the word or was it that

297
00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:03,690
there was something else going on that

298
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:05,790
that didn't have a word for his

299
00:13:12,980 --> 00:13:10,290
experience so um and then the very a few

300
00:13:18,170 --> 00:13:12,990
days before he died he said enough

301
00:13:22,940 --> 00:13:18,180
enough the angel say enough and three

302
00:13:25,820 --> 00:13:22,950
days later he was gone that little twist

303
00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:25,830
there plays another important part into

304
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:28,590
this larger story and pattern and this

305
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:31,110
very confusing metaphysical part of this

306
00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:33,510
is precognition I mean here's a guy who

307
00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:35,580
not only now is talking to the angels

308
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:37,710
and reporting back what the angels say

309
00:13:43,850 --> 00:13:40,880
which is an important part but he's

310
00:13:46,130 --> 00:13:43,860
predicting his death accurately he's

311
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:46,140
having a precognitive event here and

312
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:48,480
saying three days I'm going to go I know

313
00:13:53,810 --> 00:13:51,210
and it's just again those three weeks

314
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:53,820
with my father on one hand I was a

315
00:13:59,510 --> 00:13:56,730
grieving daughter of course and on the

316
00:14:01,730 --> 00:13:59,520
other hand I felt like I was had to

317
00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:01,740
enter a completely new territory in

318
00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:04,440
world and I was even more startling just

319
00:14:11,330 --> 00:14:06,630
because of who my father was I mean he

320
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:11,340
was someone who who rolled his eyes when

321
00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:13,770
he heard the word angel right so that

322
00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:16,680
was even more compelling when I heard

323
00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:19,740
those things from him okay so this

324
00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:22,670
happens your dad passes and you feel

325
00:14:29,470 --> 00:14:25,140
this is percolating in the back of your

326
00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:29,480
mind and then it's also kind of you know

327
00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:31,980
interesting synchronistic in a very

328
00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:33,660
small way I don't want to exaggerate it

329
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,350
but you meet Raymond Moody and at the

330
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:39,120
time you don't even realize but Moody is

331
00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:41,760
really really interested in exactly the

332
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:44,280
stuff that you're looking into right

333
00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:48,810
that's exactly right and I had read

334
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:50,700
Moody's book when I was 17 and I was

335
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:52,770
very intrigued by it so he when I went

336
00:14:56,510 --> 00:14:54,360
to go to his workshop because I was

337
00:14:58,130 --> 00:14:56,520
trying to figure out what was I wanted

338
00:15:01,540 --> 00:14:58,140
to know more about final word

339
00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:01,550
he had spent 40 years researching

340
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:03,870
unintelligible language and it was

341
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:05,880
actually his first field of interest

342
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:08,550
when he got his PhD in philosophy he was

343
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:10,410
very interested like given non sense of

344
00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:12,240
Lewis and Carroll Alice in Wonderland

345
00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:14,670
for example so it was actually his

346
00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:17,280
interest in unintelligibility that

347
00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:19,500
brought him to the near-death experience

348
00:15:23,810 --> 00:15:21,870
and what happened is when he was a young

349
00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:23,820
medical student and he already had a PhD

350
00:15:29,330 --> 00:15:26,300
in philosophy where he specialized in

351
00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:29,340
nonsensical language he heard from his

352
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:32,040
patients who died and returned this

353
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:35,190
language that was almost like Alice in

354
00:15:39,710 --> 00:15:37,110
Wonderland they would say things like I

355
00:15:42,830 --> 00:15:39,720
never felt as alive as when I was dead

356
00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:42,840
or it felt like one minute but also a

357
00:15:48,350 --> 00:15:45,180
million years when I had my afterlife

358
00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:48,360
experience or people communicate but

359
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:51,990
they don't talk well Raymond heard all

360
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:54,630
these nonsensical descriptions and he

361
00:15:59,510 --> 00:15:56,730
started writing them down from these

362
00:16:03,500 --> 00:15:59,520
people who died and came back and from

363
00:16:05,270 --> 00:16:03,510
that evolved the characteristics and the

364
00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:05,280
qualities of the near-death experience

365
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:08,190
and so when I heard that I was really

366
00:16:14,330 --> 00:16:11,370
really stunned to know that intersection

367
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:14,340
between language and the transpersonal

368
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:18,090
study of death and dying and so we just

369
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:20,250
started speaking in a few months later I

370
00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:22,890
decided that I wanted to study with this

371
00:16:29,570 --> 00:16:25,470
man and work with this man and I left

372
00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:29,580
behind California I packed up my Mustang

373
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:31,830
with my husband and all our kids were

374
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:34,110
already out and off to colleges so we

375
00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:38,310
drove to Georgia and I studied and work

376
00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:40,200
with dr. Raymond Moody which is one of

377
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:42,840
the biggest honors and privileges of my

378
00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:46,110
life again amazing I mean you're kind of

379
00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:48,030
condensing it down into a nice little

380
00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:49,860
story but when somebody breaks that down

381
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:51,900
and think about what that must have been

382
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:54,660
that's a huge you know life shift for

383
00:16:58,580 --> 00:16:56,010
you and also there's an interesting

384
00:17:00,440 --> 00:16:58,590
little synchronicity there I mean how

385
00:17:02,510 --> 00:17:00,450
you even come to you know you have a

386
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:02,520
friend who says oh you're interested in

387
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:04,290
that stuff you know I know Raymond Moody

388
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,810
is teaching this class and you ought to

389
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:08,480
go and you know and then

390
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:11,600
you go and you just you get this book

391
00:17:15,699 --> 00:17:13,970
from him and you don't really say a lot

392
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:15,709
I guess there but then you'll go back

393
00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:18,230
and you really you know dig into it and

394
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:20,360
then you kind of I mean it's quite a

395
00:17:26,289 --> 00:17:23,360
story and you know I thank you so much

396
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:26,299
for appreciating it it has been for a

397
00:17:31,870 --> 00:17:29,440
lack of a better word magical because in

398
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:31,880
synchronicity after synchronicity

399
00:17:36,850 --> 00:17:34,100
occurred and when that happens in your

400
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:36,860
life no matter what it is you do almost

401
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:39,110
feel you've got to follow it you know

402
00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:40,880
it's almost like turning away from a

403
00:17:47,710 --> 00:17:45,380
blessing to not follow follow it so you

404
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:47,720
know yes I left a really great secure

405
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:50,150
job in Napa California one of the most

406
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:52,970
beautiful places you know anywhere I had

407
00:17:59,650 --> 00:17:56,570
a great great job and but I just felt

408
00:18:01,330 --> 00:17:59,660
called to do this and and I'm very glad

409
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:01,340
I did I have no regrets but you know

410
00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:03,290
I've through my savings because you know

411
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:04,820
Raymond and I did not get any major

412
00:18:09,010 --> 00:18:07,490
grants or anything to do this work it

413
00:18:11,530 --> 00:18:09,020
was really a labor of love but I have

414
00:18:13,060 --> 00:18:11,540
absolutely no regrets it it was a

415
00:18:14,919 --> 00:18:13,070
wonderful experience

416
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:14,929
and I'm very grateful I have a terrific

417
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:17,480
husband who was willing to willing to

418
00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:19,970
you know take the take the leap with me

419
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:23,030
and do it that's great and you know

420
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,510
Raymond moody people know and recognize

421
00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:28,880
as being the person who really brought

422
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:30,620
the whole whole term near-death

423
00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:33,679
experience into our collective

424
00:18:39,419 --> 00:18:35,660
consciousness and kind of coined it if

425
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:39,429
you will but he's an interesting bird to

426
00:18:43,870 --> 00:18:42,080
I mean I've interviewed him a couple

427
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:43,880
times and I'm always kind of torn

428
00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:47,120
between you know what's going on with

429
00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:48,860
this guy is he shooting straight with me

430
00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:50,900
I mean he talks in riddles a lot of

431
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,200
times and then but but also I've left

432
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:56,480
conversations with him and I've told

433
00:19:00,700 --> 00:18:57,919
people this and I've told it on the air

434
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:00,710
that when I reflect back there like

435
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:02,960
these nuggets of deep truth

436
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:04,910
well it just kind of come through you

437
00:19:08,890 --> 00:19:06,770
know one is the nonsense thing I mean

438
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,900
he's thought I can verify what you're

439
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:10,400
saying he's been harping on that

440
00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:13,760
right years for years and the other is

441
00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:15,799
just saying you know I remember him

442
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:18,230
saying well you know this whole study is

443
00:19:22,030 --> 00:19:20,900
pre-scientific yeah when I was like wait

444
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:22,040
a minute wait a minute you

445
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:23,510
no Raymond we're trying to bring

446
00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:25,280
credibility to this we're trying to say

447
00:19:31,810 --> 00:19:29,150
that science is it and how true is it to

448
00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:31,820
say you know we're looking at the whole

449
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:34,580
frickin thing backwards you know and if

450
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:36,890
we are looking at it backwards of course

451
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:40,240
it's pre-scientific because science is

452
00:19:45,670 --> 00:19:42,890
backwards it's looking at the result and

453
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:45,680
we're looking at the the larger reality

454
00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:47,930
perhaps and he never goes so far as to

455
00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:49,640
say those kind of things he just says

456
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:51,590
it's pretty scientific and that you have

457
00:19:54,610 --> 00:19:52,910
to figure out their riddle and figure

458
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:54,620
out that what that means or he says it's

459
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:57,110
like you say it's nonsense and then you

460
00:20:01,150 --> 00:19:58,640
have to figure out the riddle and figure

461
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:01,160
out well it's nonsense because maybe

462
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:04,870
because this reality that we're in is

463
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:07,610
nonsense you know in a way that we don't

464
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,690
understand you know I mean there's so

465
00:20:12,550 --> 00:20:10,640
again it's just a riddle kind of paradox

466
00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:12,560
thing I think with Raymond a lot of

467
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:13,000
times

468
00:20:16,890 --> 00:20:14,930
absolutely well one of the things he

469
00:20:18,820 --> 00:20:16,900
talks about is in traditional

470
00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:18,830
conversation this goes way back to

471
00:20:24,910 --> 00:20:22,790
Aristotle right everything has one on

472
00:20:27,130 --> 00:20:24,920
one meaning for example if I say this is

473
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,140
a cup I'm holding in my hand a tea cup

474
00:20:32,110 --> 00:20:29,600
here we both know we agree that there's

475
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:32,120
one meeting that corresponds with cup

476
00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:34,610
but when you get into nonsense

477
00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:37,460
so in even metaphor there are a multiple

478
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:39,110
you start dealing in the realm of

479
00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:41,570
multiple meanings for things so let me

480
00:20:47,020 --> 00:20:43,880
be more specific you know a cup is a cup

481
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:47,030
but if I were to say to you Alex your

482
00:20:52,090 --> 00:20:50,330
heart is like an overabundant cup well

483
00:20:53,860 --> 00:20:52,100
many people would interpret that in

484
00:20:57,310 --> 00:20:53,870
different ways some people might say oh

485
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,320
he's so drippy right everybody cut the

486
00:21:02,530 --> 00:20:59,360
guy's just you know or they might say

487
00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:02,540
he's full of love and caring but when

488
00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:04,550
you have metaphor language that's not

489
00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:07,720
literal language or nonsensical language

490
00:21:12,610 --> 00:21:11,150
then when my dad said my modality is

491
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:12,620
broken well you and I could sit around

492
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:15,290
for years and try to figure out what the

493
00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:16,370
heck that means

494
00:21:21,730 --> 00:21:20,060
but you and I agree that cup is cup so

495
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:21,740
one of the things that Raymond would say

496
00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:25,760
is that are this dimensional reality

497
00:21:30,850 --> 00:21:28,430
this literal you know this world we live

498
00:21:35,530 --> 00:21:30,860
in is based on one-to-one correspondence

499
00:21:36,190 --> 00:21:35,540
is right and but what if really there

500
00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:36,200
are

501
00:21:41,169 --> 00:21:38,600
realities or dimensions a way of singing

502
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:41,179
things such as the dream world now you

503
00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:43,820
could have a dream that has symbols that

504
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:45,320
might mean something different to me

505
00:21:50,979 --> 00:21:48,710
that it means to you so in the in dream

506
00:21:53,289 --> 00:21:50,989
time for example there are not those

507
00:21:55,779 --> 00:21:53,299
one-on-one correspondences right it's

508
00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:55,789
different so Raymond would maybe say

509
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:58,129
well how do we know that this is a

510
00:22:04,509 --> 00:22:00,559
reality of one-to-one correspondence is

511
00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:04,519
well you know honestly X I mean that I'm

512
00:22:08,529 --> 00:22:06,710
a pretty grounded person so when Raymond

513
00:22:12,009 --> 00:22:08,539
starts talking that way I'm like you are

514
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:12,019
a philosopher I hire you I admire you

515
00:22:16,599 --> 00:22:14,690
for that but you know really for me when

516
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:16,609
I did the final words work what I loved

517
00:22:21,129 --> 00:22:18,799
about it was actually pretty grounded

518
00:22:23,710 --> 00:22:21,139
because when you have sentences and

519
00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:23,720
people say things that seems very and

520
00:22:28,769 --> 00:22:25,809
you write them down that's pretty real

521
00:22:31,479 --> 00:22:28,779
but Raymond's perspective on things is

522
00:22:33,999 --> 00:22:31,489
remarkable and one of the first things

523
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:34,009
he is truly a mentor to me but one of

524
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:38,210
the we had one disagreement early on and

525
00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:40,730
I came to see that he was right but our

526
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:42,980
disagreement was this when I first

527
00:22:47,289 --> 00:22:44,960
started doing the final words research I

528
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:47,299
said don't we need to control four

529
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,210
medications right I mean maybe people

530
00:22:53,979 --> 00:22:52,159
saying goofy things and we have to

531
00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:53,989
figure out what medication they're on

532
00:22:59,080 --> 00:22:57,230
because maybe certain meds make people

533
00:23:02,379 --> 00:22:59,090
say goofy things right

534
00:23:04,419 --> 00:23:02,389
he said no don't no we're not going to

535
00:23:07,659 --> 00:23:04,429
do that because what we want to do is

536
00:23:11,499 --> 00:23:07,669
see what patterns emerge across all

537
00:23:13,779 --> 00:23:11,509
medications and diagnosis and he was

538
00:23:16,899 --> 00:23:13,789
right because we didn't control for meds

539
00:23:20,259 --> 00:23:16,909
and yet the patterns organically emerged

540
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:20,269
no matter the medications or what the

541
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:23,690
illnesses were so I learned to trust

542
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:26,690
Raymond I learned to think whenever I

543
00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:28,970
thought oh no no no Raymond I really

544
00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:30,980
learned to trust his instincts over time

545
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:33,320
and and he's been a great a great mentor

546
00:23:38,769 --> 00:23:35,809
and guide awesome and that's it's

547
00:23:39,849 --> 00:23:38,779
brilliant and you made a brilliant point

548
00:23:42,399 --> 00:23:39,859
there that I want to make sure we

549
00:23:44,529 --> 00:23:42,409
highlight you say in the book the

550
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:44,539
investigation is not formal or rigorous

551
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,159
that is it doesn't control for

552
00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:48,320
medications or illness I offer a

553
00:23:51,159 --> 00:23:49,700
detailed explanation

554
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:51,169
formed by hospice professionals blah

555
00:23:56,110 --> 00:23:54,320
blah blah you know back to the thing

556
00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:56,120
about Raymond it's funny you tell that

557
00:24:00,970 --> 00:23:58,490
story because it does fit in with my

558
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:00,980
experiences when you reflect on it there

559
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:04,159
is a deep wisdom that he has there I've

560
00:24:08,529 --> 00:24:05,510
been looking at this near-death

561
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:08,539
experience thing for a long time and one

562
00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:13,600
of the common knocks on it from the

563
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:15,950
medical community who just really

564
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:17,090
doesn't want to deal with any of this

565
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:19,610
stuff at all is they say oh well look

566
00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:22,190
you can't rely on that I mean this

567
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:24,620
person was drowning I mean this person

568
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:25,850
had a completely different experience

569
00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:28,370
they were under they're in a coma

570
00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:30,350
this person did cardiac arrest this

571
00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:33,260
person had anesthesia then you say yeah

572
00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:36,230
that's the point why they all have the

573
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:38,750
same experience if they had completely

574
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:41,090
different physiological medical

575
00:24:44,649 --> 00:24:43,010
conditions and that's what I think

576
00:24:46,389 --> 00:24:44,659
you've done here when you say the

577
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:46,399
investigation is not formal or rigorous

578
00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:49,250
well in one way maybe that's true and

579
00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:50,840
the way that you said but in another way

580
00:24:57,340 --> 00:24:54,260
it because the way you did it it again

581
00:25:00,039 --> 00:24:57,350
brings to the to the front this question

582
00:25:01,930 --> 00:25:00,049
of well then how would you explain that

583
00:25:04,389 --> 00:25:01,940
this person like you said you're

584
00:25:05,649 --> 00:25:04,399
grounded in and this comes through in

585
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:05,659
the book we're going to talk a little

586
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:07,370
bit in a minute about the methodology

587
00:25:11,259 --> 00:25:09,440
went for compiling all these accounts

588
00:25:14,830 --> 00:25:11,269
which is pretty amazing and there's like

589
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:14,840
1500 of them in the book but then they

590
00:25:20,529 --> 00:25:16,850
speak in terms of the patterns you found

591
00:25:23,769 --> 00:25:20,539
speak then transcending illness

592
00:25:25,810 --> 00:25:23,779
transcending age transcending all these

593
00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:25,820
variables that someone could throw at it

594
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:27,470
and say oh well yeah that's just

595
00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:29,570
dementia oh really well in this case

596
00:25:32,649 --> 00:25:31,100
there's a completely different medical

597
00:25:34,029 --> 00:25:32,659
background oh well that's probably

598
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:34,039
medications oh really

599
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:36,320
here's a younger person that you don't I

600
00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:39,440
mean it really does that yes and that

601
00:25:43,899 --> 00:25:41,750
was an and again I was surprised because

602
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:43,909
when I first began I looked at Raymond

603
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:46,010
sort of from the corner of my eye like

604
00:25:51,639 --> 00:25:49,970
really really doc and he was like let's

605
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:51,649
just give it a try and see what happens

606
00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:54,769
and he you know as you said he was he

607
00:25:59,019 --> 00:25:56,750
was right and it was from his experience

608
00:26:01,539 --> 00:25:59,029
with near-death experiences that that

609
00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:01,549
led him to encourage me to move in that

610
00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:02,840
way so

611
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:04,280
Lisa tell folks a little bit how you

612
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:07,760
went about compiling all these accounts

613
00:26:13,870 --> 00:26:11,510
um you know I first approached hospice

614
00:26:15,730 --> 00:26:13,880
and they were very protective the

615
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,740
scientist in me I first had this image

616
00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:17,600
of like I'm gonna go bedside with

617
00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:20,750
digital recorders and get the words of

618
00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:22,520
the dying well I learned very very

619
00:26:27,390 --> 00:26:24,740
quickly that first that's such a sacred

620
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:27,400
in private time and Hospice

621
00:26:31,930 --> 00:26:29,450
understandably really did not want

622
00:26:34,420 --> 00:26:31,940
someone a stranger not being affiliated

623
00:26:36,670 --> 00:26:34,430
with the University and being under the

624
00:26:40,510 --> 00:26:36,680
guidance of what's called a IRB that

625
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:40,520
controls ethical scientific research you

626
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:41,990
know they didn't just want some person

627
00:26:47,770 --> 00:26:44,720
coming in and doing that and I got to

628
00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:47,780
fully understand how inappropriate that

629
00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:49,640
would have been for so many reasons and

630
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:51,830
I'll say more about that later but what

631
00:26:57,790 --> 00:26:55,730
I did do is I spoke to families and

632
00:27:00,520 --> 00:26:57,800
loved ones and asked if they'd be

633
00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:00,530
willing to transcribe their loved ones

634
00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:02,060
words and they could pick and choose

635
00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:03,980
which ones I would get because for those

636
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:05,780
very private conversations of course

637
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:09,310
people want to keep those private right

638
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:13,430
but so people did share those and then I

639
00:27:20,830 --> 00:27:16,490
I was bedside it's up for some of them I

640
00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:20,840
had chaplains and hospice workers and

641
00:27:26,020 --> 00:27:24,020
nurses I share things with me I switch

642
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:26,030
to professionals other professionals in

643
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:29,360
the field of linguistics and psychology

644
00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:33,710
and neuroscience so I really did a range

645
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:36,680
of types of information gathering and

646
00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:38,930
then I have the final words project and

647
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:41,240
we have a submission form where people

648
00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:43,130
can go ahead and submit their accounts

649
00:27:46,780 --> 00:27:44,420
and then I followed it up with phone

650
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:46,790
calls just to make sure that people were

651
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:49,370
credible and I just want to make sure

652
00:27:53,620 --> 00:27:51,110
the data I was getting was from coming

653
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:53,630
from credible sources tell folks a

654
00:27:57,850 --> 00:27:55,460
little bit more about the online

655
00:28:00,190 --> 00:27:57,860
submission and how that played into it

656
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:00,200
because that's still up and going right

657
00:28:06,490 --> 00:28:02,510
yes absolutely and I want to keep

658
00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:06,500
collecting data for as long as I can it

659
00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:08,990
just basically it's a form where you

660
00:28:14,299 --> 00:28:11,390
give your consent and you'll do what we

661
00:28:16,919 --> 00:28:14,309
do ask questions about meds and

662
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:16,929
just as simple you share what you want

663
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:18,610
to share and we feel comfortable sharing

664
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:21,760
and I don't share it with anybody you

665
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:22,960
make a choice whether you want to put

666
00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:25,360
your name or not and I just have

667
00:28:31,470 --> 00:28:29,169
gathered some wonderful stories last

668
00:28:33,870 --> 00:28:31,480
week I got a story from someone who

669
00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:33,880
talked about her loved one who is right

670
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:35,350
at the edge of dying and was going

671
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:37,890
through a difficult period right before

672
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:40,510
passing and she started talking about

673
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:42,970
the mama train she wanted to get on the

674
00:28:48,629 --> 00:28:46,210
mama train and this woman started

675
00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:48,639
started sharing with her let's let's

676
00:28:52,409 --> 00:28:50,620
let's go on the mama train let's go on

677
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:52,419
the mama train and just entered into our

678
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:54,490
loved ones world anyway I get it that's

679
00:28:59,610 --> 00:28:56,320
a sort of an example of an account I got

680
00:29:02,909 --> 00:28:59,620
last week and I I get it several

681
00:29:04,649 --> 00:29:02,919
accounts every week now and it's I'm

682
00:29:06,659 --> 00:29:04,659
honored to get them some people when I

683
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:06,669
do and we really appreciate them of

684
00:29:12,899 --> 00:29:09,760
course so let's pick up on the mama

685
00:29:16,259 --> 00:29:12,909
train kind of thing because this gets

686
00:29:19,159 --> 00:29:16,269
into the bulk of your research and the

687
00:29:22,110 --> 00:29:19,169
thing that people will stop find I think

688
00:29:25,049 --> 00:29:22,120
challenging and fascinating but at the

689
00:29:26,879 --> 00:29:25,059
same time I mean they all we all know

690
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:26,889
this stuff is real because we all have

691
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:30,010
either direct experience or you know at

692
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:31,690
least somebody in our family has been

693
00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:34,450
around somebody who's died and has said

694
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:38,230
things that seem profound and may they

695
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:39,970
may be metaphorical or they may seem

696
00:29:44,879 --> 00:29:41,710
nonsensical but at some point they seem

697
00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:44,889
profound I mean give us a sense for the

698
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:47,320
kind of communication that people are

699
00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:50,320
having great well just to wrap up a

700
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:52,600
little bit about my dad as I mentioned

701
00:29:57,539 --> 00:29:55,330
before you hear a lot of talking about a

702
00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:57,549
journey you know the yellow bus the

703
00:30:02,009 --> 00:29:59,470
yellow bus the yellow bus is full of

704
00:30:05,399 --> 00:30:02,019
angels the yellow bus or talking about

705
00:30:07,889 --> 00:30:05,409
the train coming or needing a passport

706
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:07,899
to go to another country so a lot of

707
00:30:14,370 --> 00:30:10,590
metaphors around travel my father would

708
00:30:15,570 --> 00:30:14,380
said let's get the oxygen tank I have to

709
00:30:17,789 --> 00:30:15,580
get to Las Vegas

710
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:17,799
he loved to gamble so that was his

711
00:30:24,510 --> 00:30:20,799
travel metaphor but you see metaphors

712
00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:24,520
you also see a lot of repetition that

713
00:30:30,090 --> 00:30:27,700
occurs beautiful so beautiful

714
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:30,100
it's all in one piece it's all in one

715
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:33,010
piece it's all in one piece what you see

716
00:30:38,659 --> 00:30:35,380
in different pieces it's all in one

717
00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:38,669
piece so you see a lot of repetitive

718
00:30:45,389 --> 00:30:41,529
language you also see something that I

719
00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:45,399
call sustained narratives where someone

720
00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:47,769
will start a story let's say two weeks

721
00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:51,070
out they begin talking about the train

722
00:30:56,940 --> 00:30:54,340
is breaking down or there's that boxing

723
00:30:59,820 --> 00:30:56,950
champ is walking into my room or there's

724
00:31:03,899 --> 00:30:59,830
a woman in blue who just came by they'll

725
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:03,909
start a story but it evolves over the

726
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,159
days or weeks that they're dying and

727
00:31:11,129 --> 00:31:08,799
it's remarkable to me that someone might

728
00:31:12,899 --> 00:31:11,139
start a story about the train that's

729
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:12,909
having trouble leaving the station

730
00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:15,700
maybe December first and then December

731
00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:18,220
15th well now the train is pulling up to

732
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:20,620
the station and then December 20th

733
00:31:24,299 --> 00:31:22,510
they're talking about coming up to the

734
00:31:27,629 --> 00:31:24,309
platform and the people waiting for them

735
00:31:30,299 --> 00:31:27,639
so you'll hear these remarkable stories

736
00:31:33,779 --> 00:31:30,309
evolve even though someone's brain is

737
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:33,789
technically dying it's remarkable that a

738
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:36,610
story can be sustained over time so you

739
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:39,490
see that you see non referential

740
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:41,200
language which I mentioned to you a

741
00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:42,970
little bit when my father said I've

742
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:45,580
never done this before it's when it's

743
00:31:49,620 --> 00:31:47,529
not clear what the reference is so

744
00:31:50,879 --> 00:31:49,630
you'll heat there here things like it's

745
00:31:54,810 --> 00:31:50,889
not what you think

746
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:54,820
or it's lovely or it's all a hoax which

747
00:31:58,799 --> 00:31:56,110
was Roger Ebert's

748
00:32:02,340 --> 00:31:58,809
yeah yeah it's all an elaborate hoax I'm

749
00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:02,350
a amazing final I'm too bad too bad I

750
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:05,860
can't tell you of this you also hear

751
00:32:10,019 --> 00:32:07,450
something called that I call

752
00:32:12,810 --> 00:32:10,029
prepositional shift where people talk

753
00:32:16,409 --> 00:32:12,820
about their place in space and time in

754
00:32:19,649 --> 00:32:16,419
unusual ways I got to go down there I

755
00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:19,659
have to go down or I'm on top now moving

756
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:23,190
on top I'm crossing up I'm crossing up

757
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:26,320
you also see something I call hybrid

758
00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:29,200
nonsense where one part of the sentence

759
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:31,809
refers to something going on in this

760
00:32:37,409 --> 00:32:34,570
world you know in this reality but then

761
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:37,419
something refers to something we don't

762
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:41,049
see for example please massage my feet

763
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:41,590
honey

764
00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:44,770
I can get down into the rabbit hole so

765
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:46,750
there's no real rabbit hole but there

766
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:50,320
are real feet right get my camera I need

767
00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:53,050
to take a picture of this

768
00:32:57,930 --> 00:32:55,480
they left the ladders but the ladders

769
00:33:00,540 --> 00:32:57,940
are too short to go up there so someone

770
00:33:02,820 --> 00:33:00,550
was referring to the ladders outside

771
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:02,830
their window but they needed the ladders

772
00:33:08,790 --> 00:33:04,450
the quote get up there

773
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:08,800
it really is literally like they are in

774
00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:11,080
two worlds I mean they're stepping into

775
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:12,940
one world that it would appear and

776
00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:15,610
they're reporting on that and the best

777
00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:17,620
they can and then they're stepping back

778
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:20,440
in this world I mean that's one of the

779
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:22,210
ways to Gus interpret it right

780
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:25,600
absolutely and and many hospice nurses

781
00:33:30,530 --> 00:33:28,690
who must spoke with spoke of it that way

782
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:30,540
and they said the difference between

783
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:32,470
hallucinations when people are taking

784
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:34,570
drugs is that they don't have that

785
00:33:39,510 --> 00:33:36,970
ability to move in and out between the

786
00:33:42,990 --> 00:33:39,520
two worlds so one of the things I heard

787
00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:43,000
reported a lot is people would be having

788
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:46,900
conversations with the unseen relatives

789
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:48,910
that may have died before for example

790
00:33:55,230 --> 00:33:51,730
one woman described how her father was

791
00:33:57,540 --> 00:33:55,240
saying oh it's Earl Earl and that was

792
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:57,550
the father had passed on and then the

793
00:34:02,970 --> 00:33:59,200
mother was going back talking to this

794
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:02,980
unseen father and yet that she would say

795
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:04,480
to the daughter oh I'm feeling much

796
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:05,050
better

797
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:07,900
Earl is with me so she had consciousness

798
00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:09,250
and awareness that her daughter was

799
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:11,830
there however in cases where people have

800
00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:16,330
hallucinations related to drugs

801
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:18,880
the hospice nurses told me there wasn't

802
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:21,130
that same sense of being able to move in

803
00:34:24,930 --> 00:34:23,290
and out you know that that's kind of

804
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:24,940
interesting because you kind of hit us

805
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:27,700
with a lot of different bits and pieces

806
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:30,130
of this communication but what you do in

807
00:34:34,860 --> 00:34:32,410
the book and again this is the linguist

808
00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:34,870
part of it that's really intriguing is

809
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:37,710
you've really structured it

810
00:34:43,050 --> 00:34:40,930
deconstructed it broken it down in ways

811
00:34:44,910 --> 00:34:43,060
that makes it hard to kind of dismiss

812
00:34:47,910 --> 00:34:44,920
one way or another like you said about

813
00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:47,920
the meeting of beings you know which is

814
00:34:52,410 --> 00:34:50,230
another kind of common aspect to this or

815
00:34:53,629 --> 00:34:52,420
the journey is another aspect of it

816
00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:53,639
friends is another

817
00:34:58,009 --> 00:34:55,740
aspect of it and then metaphor you know

818
00:35:00,529 --> 00:34:58,019
so each chapter in the book kind of

819
00:35:03,259 --> 00:35:00,539
looks at looks through a different lens

820
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:03,269
as a linguist in terms of what were to

821
00:35:08,329 --> 00:35:06,210
make of this communication how did that

822
00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:08,339
all shake out for you in terms of

823
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:12,440
figuring out how to deconstruct all this

824
00:35:19,099 --> 00:35:16,260
language yeah well the first part of it

825
00:35:21,650 --> 00:35:19,109
was it was remarkable to me you know in

826
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:21,660
the old school when people would do

827
00:35:26,569 --> 00:35:25,200
photographs in the photo lab and they do

828
00:35:28,549 --> 00:35:26,579
think these chemicals and they would put

829
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,559
something in and then suddenly the

830
00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:31,440
pattern would emerge of the photograph

831
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:32,640
and I had that feeling with this

832
00:35:38,299 --> 00:35:34,650
language because I collected it and

833
00:35:41,799 --> 00:35:38,309
suddenly these categories to me merged

834
00:35:44,509 --> 00:35:41,809
very organically I mean it just just

835
00:35:46,460 --> 00:35:44,519
they just made so much sense and then

836
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:46,470
when I started interviewing people and

837
00:35:51,710 --> 00:35:49,170
the connection so for example I

838
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:51,720
interviewed Madeline Lawrence who did

839
00:35:59,960 --> 00:35:54,240
research with coma victims or survivors

840
00:36:03,109 --> 00:35:59,970
excuse me and and 70% of them reported

841
00:36:05,839 --> 00:36:03,119
that while they were in a coma they they

842
00:36:08,450 --> 00:36:05,849
could remember something that there was

843
00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:08,460
some consciousness for them during the

844
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:10,140
experience when it seemed they were

845
00:36:14,509 --> 00:36:12,079
completely unresponsive and not

846
00:36:16,609 --> 00:36:14,519
connected in any way to themselves or

847
00:36:18,589 --> 00:36:16,619
the external world so I when I started

848
00:36:22,910 --> 00:36:18,599
interviewing people and hearing these

849
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:22,920
stories and many of them were related to

850
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:24,569
the medical profession I mean they

851
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:26,730
weren't what I would think of as woowoo

852
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:28,650
you know just they were medically

853
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:32,720
trained and scientifically trained I

854
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:36,000
just started making connections that

855
00:36:42,589 --> 00:36:38,450
seem very natural to me so for example

856
00:36:44,539 --> 00:36:42,599
there there's a psychologist team they

857
00:36:47,569 --> 00:36:44,549
did research on the communication of

858
00:36:48,740 --> 00:36:47,579
infants and and parents and they found

859
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:48,750
that there were these kinds of

860
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:49,950
connections that seemed to almost

861
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:52,680
telepathic like how parents knew what

862
00:36:57,799 --> 00:36:54,960
the needs of their of their infants were

863
00:36:58,579 --> 00:36:57,809
so I began to just ask questions out of

864
00:37:00,339 --> 00:36:58,589
curiosity

865
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:00,349
could it be that we start out

866
00:37:04,779 --> 00:37:02,490
telepathically because when I

867
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:04,789
interviewed near-death experiencers they

868
00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:06,510
described a language

869
00:37:12,410 --> 00:37:09,150
age of the afterlife that's telepathic

870
00:37:14,540 --> 00:37:12,420
so you start seeing patterns and all I

871
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:14,550
do in a lot of the book is ask questions

872
00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:17,310
and pose questions as I look at possible

873
00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:19,260
connections between things but the

874
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:21,780
language and the data you can't that

875
00:37:26,510 --> 00:37:24,410
that just exists right that just exists

876
00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:26,520
you know you mentioned the near-death

877
00:37:31,850 --> 00:37:29,190
experience and I kept reading it and

878
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:31,860
going wow you know this is a whole area

879
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:34,530
that opens up a lot of new research

880
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:36,540
topics for near-death experience

881
00:37:41,630 --> 00:37:39,720
researchers that the one being that a

882
00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:41,640
lot of these are near-death experiences

883
00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:44,820
right a lot of these are you cannot

884
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,830
escape that from what we know of

885
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:48,240
near-death experiences and we've

886
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:49,980
compiled a lot of them at this point

887
00:37:54,410 --> 00:37:52,500
we've done a lot of analysis of it and a

888
00:37:56,990 --> 00:37:54,420
lot of it stops in this kind of medical

889
00:37:58,670 --> 00:37:57,000
realm of is the brain what state is the

890
00:38:01,490 --> 00:37:58,680
brain in and I you know did that were

891
00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:01,500
they able to perceive the sock on the

892
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:03,390
doctor but all those near-death

893
00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:06,510
experiences a good percentage of them

894
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:09,990
also transcend into this other realm and

895
00:38:13,580 --> 00:38:11,970
then they bring back these accounts well

896
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:13,590
that's exactly what's going on here and

897
00:38:17,870 --> 00:38:14,970
it took me a while to catch on to that

898
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:17,880
but hey these people are saying but some

899
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:20,640
of them are saying I went to the other

900
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:24,090
side and I brought back this I love this

901
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:26,790
poke one person says and of course our

902
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:28,710
world the one we're living in now is

903
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:30,720
three-dimensional but then next one

904
00:38:34,910 --> 00:38:32,940
definitely isn't I mean this is a

905
00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:34,920
near-death experience right they've gone

906
00:38:37,940 --> 00:38:36,660
over to the other side they've gotten

907
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:37,950
some knowledge they brought it back and

908
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:40,260
they're communicating it what does that

909
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:42,240
say for near-death experience research

910
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:45,090
exactly you know one of the things that

911
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:47,310
I noticed when I part

912
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:49,680
I interviewed near-death experiencers as

913
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:53,070
to get to get a bigger picture of final

914
00:38:59,300 --> 00:38:56,250
words and Raymond talks about this as

915
00:39:02,570 --> 00:38:59,310
well with near-death experiencers they

916
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:02,580
all say that their experiences ineffable

917
00:39:08,330 --> 00:39:05,310
this is universal that there are no

918
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:08,340
words for what they went through and so

919
00:39:13,130 --> 00:39:11,010
what they need to do often is lean on

920
00:39:14,990 --> 00:39:13,140
metaphors to try to explain what

921
00:39:17,570 --> 00:39:15,000
happened to them I need them we're

922
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,580
joining her book she spoke about how

923
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:19,440
metaphor is the only way that she could

924
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:20,490
explain

925
00:39:23,930 --> 00:39:21,660
it was like to have an afterlife

926
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:23,940
experience and she talked about a

927
00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:25,920
complicated warehouse it was like going

928
00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:28,470
to a warehouse with a searchlight and so

929
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:31,140
forth and so we hear that a lot of

930
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:33,150
near-death experiencers have to turn to

931
00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:37,050
metaphor to try to describe their

932
00:39:41,450 --> 00:39:38,790
experience so there we are we've got

933
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:41,460
metaphor we've got the ineffable like

934
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:43,830
this we hear in the language of the

935
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:46,800
dying that non referential that or they

936
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:49,770
it is and then we hear from near-death

937
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,320
experiencers as I mentioned earlier that

938
00:39:56,930 --> 00:39:54,960
the language is often paradoxical like I

939
00:40:01,250 --> 00:39:56,940
never felt as alive as when I was dead

940
00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:01,260
for example and we hear that from people

941
00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:03,060
that near-death experiences that it's

942
00:40:08,030 --> 00:40:05,790
telepathic that their communication is

943
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:08,040
like heart to heart or mind to mind but

944
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:10,650
there's no spoken language and you see

945
00:40:14,780 --> 00:40:12,660
traces that that might be happening as

946
00:40:16,190 --> 00:40:14,790
people are approaching the threshold so

947
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:16,200
I think there's a tremendous amount of

948
00:40:21,590 --> 00:40:19,710
overlap between the two indeed you know

949
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,600
one thing that just keeps popping up for

950
00:40:27,050 --> 00:40:23,760
me again and again and I don't know how

951
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:27,060
you wrestle with this but it's what I

952
00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:29,490
like to call how can this be questioned

953
00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:33,390
because obviously your research in the

954
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:36,420
book awesome inspiring for a lot of

955
00:40:41,570 --> 00:40:39,170
people it's going to be extremely

956
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:41,580
healing you know four people have gone

957
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:44,010
through a grieving process and like I

958
00:40:47,150 --> 00:40:45,330
said I think it also is is

959
00:40:50,090 --> 00:40:47,160
groundbreaking opens up a lot of new

960
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:50,100
areas of research Oakland but the thing

961
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:53,040
that that keeps coming back to me is it

962
00:40:58,609 --> 00:40:55,890
really isn't surprising in a sense I

963
00:41:01,790 --> 00:40:58,619
mean we have all heard these stories the

964
00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:01,800
big rub comes between when we then look

965
00:41:07,820 --> 00:41:05,220
to our medical establishment they're not

966
00:41:09,980 --> 00:41:07,830
interested in this we look to science

967
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:09,990
and academia they're not only not

968
00:41:15,380 --> 00:41:12,090
interested in it but they seem to be

969
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:15,390
aggressively hostile to it I mean I

970
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:17,040
can't imagine what would happen to you

971
00:41:21,590 --> 00:41:19,650
if you went back to your UC Berkeley

972
00:41:22,820 --> 00:41:21,600
friends and told them oh by the way all

973
00:41:24,740 --> 00:41:22,830
that stuff we learned about the

974
00:41:26,510 --> 00:41:24,750
relationship between the brain and

975
00:41:29,090 --> 00:41:26,520
language all that stuff well it's really

976
00:41:31,730 --> 00:41:29,100
really incomplete because we all have

977
00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:31,740
this telepathic limp link and talking to

978
00:41:37,230 --> 00:41:33,220
spirits you know

979
00:41:40,620 --> 00:41:37,240
there is this big divide that we kind of

980
00:41:42,180 --> 00:41:40,630
manage but it is problematic too for

981
00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:42,190
people who want to approach it from a

982
00:41:47,790 --> 00:41:45,400
more logical rational kind of way isn't

983
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:47,800
it yeah it's really and it's said to me

984
00:41:53,819 --> 00:41:51,490
it seems so unnecessary I mean I don't

985
00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:53,829
understand why this divide exists

986
00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:56,230
because I had thought about possibly

987
00:42:00,660 --> 00:41:58,030
going back for my doctorate to do this

988
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:00,670
research and as I researched possible

989
00:42:07,470 --> 00:42:03,970
schools I couldn't find a place that

990
00:42:09,089 --> 00:42:07,480
really received my curiosity but I but

991
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:09,099
I'm stunned because I don't think of

992
00:42:14,510 --> 00:42:12,640
myself as being a particularly uh I

993
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:14,520
don't know I think of myself as being

994
00:42:21,210 --> 00:42:18,430
relatively grounded and this doesn't

995
00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:21,220
seem like that I don't know these are

996
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:23,470
questions that just seem to open doors

997
00:42:28,170 --> 00:42:24,910
and one of the things I love that

998
00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:28,180
Raymond talks about is skepticism which

999
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:30,040
goes back to the ancient Greeks

1000
00:42:35,099 --> 00:42:32,410
was really more about the ability to

1001
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:35,109
keep reformulating your questions as you

1002
00:42:40,740 --> 00:42:38,530
get more information and it's really a

1003
00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:40,750
shame because you know I I know that

1004
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:42,220
there'll be other people or I imagine

1005
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:44,319
there'll be other people who will do

1006
00:42:49,170 --> 00:42:47,050
research after my research here which is

1007
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:49,180
just a first step that might contradict

1008
00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:51,130
things that I say might expand upon

1009
00:42:55,650 --> 00:42:53,500
things that I say but that excites me

1010
00:42:59,280 --> 00:42:55,660
because that's in the spirit of true

1011
00:43:01,859 --> 00:42:59,290
inquiry right and it's really a shame to

1012
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:01,869
me that there is so much dogmatism on

1013
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:04,390
both sides you know in spirituality

1014
00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:08,560
everyone has an element of it and it's

1015
00:43:13,349 --> 00:43:10,180
just a shame because because there's

1016
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,359
nothing more exciting to than true

1017
00:43:17,339 --> 00:43:15,760
inquiry there's for me and that's what

1018
00:43:19,470 --> 00:43:17,349
brought me to the final words project

1019
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:19,480
and doing what I'm doing and having this

1020
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,000
conversation with you right now you know

1021
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:24,720
Lisa what do you think was the most

1022
00:43:30,569 --> 00:43:27,910
surprising part of the communication

1023
00:43:31,770 --> 00:43:30,579
what what really kind of surprised you

1024
00:43:33,329 --> 00:43:31,780
and I'll tell you what it was for me in

1025
00:43:36,359 --> 00:43:33,339
a minute but I want to hear yours I

1026
00:43:38,819 --> 00:43:36,369
think the most startling there were a

1027
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:38,829
couple one was the terminal lucidity

1028
00:43:43,740 --> 00:43:40,690
where someone could be completely

1029
00:43:46,830 --> 00:43:43,750
unresponsive and then a few days before

1030
00:43:50,340 --> 00:43:46,840
dying come out of the coma or

1031
00:43:53,910 --> 00:43:50,350
lead unresponsiveness and say words of

1032
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:53,920
reconciliation or love or guidance and I

1033
00:43:58,860 --> 00:43:56,050
think the most dramatic case was his

1034
00:44:01,800 --> 00:43:58,870
gentleman who I knew is very credible

1035
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:01,810
told me his mother had Alzheimer's they

1036
00:44:06,450 --> 00:44:03,520
had you know he couldn't communicate for

1037
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:06,460
her for several years and then she went

1038
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:08,890
into a coma and a few days before she

1039
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:09,490
died

1040
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:12,730
she emerged out of the coma are being

1041
00:44:19,020 --> 00:44:15,670
and turned to him and said all the files

1042
00:44:20,820 --> 00:44:19,030
you need to make sense of my financial

1043
00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:20,830
situation are in the third drawer down

1044
00:44:27,060 --> 00:44:24,670
in the study drawer talk about lucidity

1045
00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:27,070
you talk about vicinity and then soon

1046
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:28,990
after passed on it's something like that

1047
00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:32,470
I just I mean where'd you how does one

1048
00:44:37,110 --> 00:44:34,900
put that in the scheme of things I don't

1049
00:44:39,450 --> 00:44:37,120
know I you know but it was out that was

1050
00:44:41,490 --> 00:44:39,460
one of several surprising things but

1051
00:44:43,410 --> 00:44:41,500
that was one definitely that's a great

1052
00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:43,420
one what about you I'm yeah I'm curious

1053
00:44:47,790 --> 00:44:46,390
to hear what surprised you one of the

1054
00:44:50,430 --> 00:44:47,800
things that surprise mean you've kind of

1055
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:50,440
touched on it is that the playfulness of

1056
00:44:55,830 --> 00:44:53,290
it sometimes warm because you know the

1057
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:55,840
near-death experience again we kind of

1058
00:44:59,700 --> 00:44:57,130
break it down and talk about it either

1059
00:45:02,490 --> 00:44:59,710
medically or then people talk about it

1060
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:02,500
in this kind of hyped up spiritual sense

1061
00:45:08,190 --> 00:45:05,530
you know of this great immense you know

1062
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:08,200
connection with spirit and love and hey

1063
00:45:11,610 --> 00:45:10,480
that's in your accounts too but the

1064
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:11,620
other thing that comes through and your

1065
00:45:14,940 --> 00:45:12,880
accounts is like your scientists the

1066
00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:14,950
playfulness hey I'm going to Las Vegas

1067
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:16,870
hey we need a fourth for the golf

1068
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:19,570
tournament you know or the the magician

1069
00:45:24,270 --> 00:45:22,210
you know all my I mean what the heck is

1070
00:45:28,350 --> 00:45:24,280
going on there what does that say about

1071
00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:28,360
this other realm and how maybe we ought

1072
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:29,590
to feel about it

1073
00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:32,170
mmm it's so true one of the stories I

1074
00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:34,990
loved was from Carole and was a account

1075
00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:36,580
of her last words of her father who was

1076
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:39,790
a roofing contractor and she said he

1077
00:45:44,430 --> 00:45:41,890
would awaken and look over at me and

1078
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:44,440
smile so big and he told me ah they have

1079
00:45:49,950 --> 00:45:47,260
all these kitchen Nets over there

1080
00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:49,960
there were miles of miles of them and he

1081
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:52,990
would be helping build them all you know

1082
00:45:58,890 --> 00:45:55,810
so so it is there is a sense of almost

1083
00:46:00,610 --> 00:45:58,900
joy and Wonder and awe and not always

1084
00:46:02,290 --> 00:46:00,620
Mehta want to sugarcoat

1085
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:02,300
the experience of dying because there

1086
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:04,610
are people who also you know their last

1087
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:06,290
words are help me help me and that's

1088
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:09,290
real right so I'm not mean I don't want

1089
00:46:15,310 --> 00:46:12,050
to make this sound sugar-coated or but

1090
00:46:19,450 --> 00:46:15,320
it there really is a movement towards

1091
00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:19,460
awe and wonder and end a sense of humor

1092
00:46:25,150 --> 00:46:23,420
and light heartedness so it is true and

1093
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:25,160
it's something that personally has

1094
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:26,930
touched me because you know I was one of

1095
00:46:30,490 --> 00:46:28,310
those people that before I got in the

1096
00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:30,500
airplane I would be you know spray 'king

1097
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:32,750
out and sweat and I was terrified and I

1098
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:34,160
don't feel that way anymore I mean I

1099
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:36,530
don't feel afraid of of dying the way I

1100
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:38,930
used to feel afraid and that was one of

1101
00:46:44,170 --> 00:46:40,910
the biggest gifts of my father's passing

1102
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:44,180
in and doing this research Wow and and

1103
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:46,850
perhaps I mean it's not a leap to say

1104
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:48,650
that that seems to be one of the

1105
00:46:54,610 --> 00:46:51,770
messages of this communication is to

1106
00:46:56,170 --> 00:46:54,620
comfort us comfort the people that

1107
00:46:59,620 --> 00:46:56,180
they're closest to a lot of times that's

1108
00:47:03,160 --> 00:46:59,630
pretty direct absolutely yet people say

1109
00:47:05,290 --> 00:47:03,170
things you know Televi this is another

1110
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:05,300
case of someone coming out of a coma and

1111
00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:07,250
turning to their loved one say tell

1112
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,270
everyone I'm okay and I love them Wow

1113
00:47:16,510 --> 00:47:14,000
I know um so there are remarkable

1114
00:47:20,410 --> 00:47:16,520
stories and I think you know obviously

1115
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:20,420
my small collection here of data is jut

1116
00:47:24,460 --> 00:47:22,730
I really feels really just just the

1117
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:24,470
beginning there's so much more fuss to

1118
00:47:31,060 --> 00:47:27,770
find out there is you know final topic

1119
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:31,070
that you also bring up which is a huge

1120
00:47:37,660 --> 00:47:34,910
area in and of itself but is after death

1121
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:37,670
communication rough because again every

1122
00:47:42,010 --> 00:47:40,010
time you want to pin this down and again

1123
00:47:44,380 --> 00:47:42,020
you've tooken it from it as a linguist

1124
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:44,390
and broken down the communication and

1125
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:46,730
then throw all that health home though

1126
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:48,410
because the bottom dies and the

1127
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:50,270
communication goes on so now you know

1128
00:47:54,610 --> 00:47:52,610
you could take the brain now completely

1129
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:54,620
out of it you can take all the physical

1130
00:48:00,550 --> 00:47:57,650
aspects the sensory input take all that

1131
00:48:02,350 --> 00:48:00,560
out of it and you have some just amazing

1132
00:48:04,110 --> 00:48:02,360
numbers which I guess I knew but you

1133
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:04,120
kind of put them together there in a way

1134
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:07,310
amazing numbers on after death

1135
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:09,680
communication I mean this is to say it's

1136
00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:13,130
common is like a gross understatement

1137
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:15,710
right um just actually comes from Julia

1138
00:48:22,539 --> 00:48:20,150
Santes work but 42 to 72 percent of

1139
00:48:24,730 --> 00:48:22,549
people describe having communication of

1140
00:48:27,249 --> 00:48:24,740
some kind with the dead and then it's

1141
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:27,259
higher even even into the I think high

1142
00:48:32,380 --> 00:48:30,650
80 percents for widows or widowers and

1143
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:32,390
also the parents of deceased children

1144
00:48:39,279 --> 00:48:36,079
often have very strong by you know bonds

1145
00:48:41,289 --> 00:48:39,289
with those who who have passed and we're

1146
00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:41,299
hearing more and more stories for

1147
00:48:46,059 --> 00:48:43,430
example Matthew McKay who did this book

1148
00:48:48,460 --> 00:48:46,069
seeking Jordan about his murdered son

1149
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:48,470
and this gentleman also was a psych you

1150
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:51,680
know psychologist PhD very rationally

1151
00:48:57,579 --> 00:48:54,170
based and had an experience that changed

1152
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:57,589
his whole ideas about the afterlife in

1153
00:49:01,930 --> 00:49:00,079
communication and you know I did not

1154
00:49:04,210 --> 00:49:01,940
think I was going to go into the after

1155
00:49:07,569 --> 00:49:04,220
death communication but there were so

1156
00:49:09,579 --> 00:49:07,579
many people who after they attract final

1157
00:49:12,009 --> 00:49:09,589
words or shared their final word story

1158
00:49:16,269 --> 00:49:12,019
we also say oh my goodness I got to tell

1159
00:49:18,370 --> 00:49:16,279
you after my loved one died I had I you

1160
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:18,380
know my doorbell started ringing I you

1161
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:20,000
know the night that that person died and

1162
00:49:25,089 --> 00:49:23,089
went stop ringing or alarm started going

1163
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:25,099
off for light bulbs exploded

1164
00:49:28,569 --> 00:49:27,200
I had several accounts of people getting

1165
00:49:31,660 --> 00:49:28,579
text messages

1166
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,670
one gentleman described to me that the

1167
00:49:39,339 --> 00:49:33,920
taxi company that his wife would often

1168
00:49:41,890 --> 00:49:39,349
take to his his place of work texted him

1169
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:41,900
just as she was dying that they had just

1170
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:46,130
sent a taxi out of to his his place of

1171
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:47,119
employment

1172
00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:50,000
so people have synchronicities with

1173
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:51,190
nature

1174
00:49:59,289 --> 00:49:56,210
rainbows appearing it just it completely

1175
00:50:02,859 --> 00:49:59,299
surprised me to hear how many of these

1176
00:50:05,940 --> 00:50:02,869
stories exist and from people that again

1177
00:50:11,799 --> 00:50:09,700
skeptical you know very grounded folks

1178
00:50:13,210 --> 00:50:11,809
having these kinds of experiences so I

1179
00:50:18,069 --> 00:50:13,220
thought thought they were really

1180
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,079
remarkable right so again the book words

1181
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:20,240
at the threshold what we say when we're

1182
00:50:25,150 --> 00:50:22,730
nearing death it's out right now right

1183
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:25,160
people can get it Amazon they can also

1184
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:27,000
and then your webs

1185
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:29,520
is still up and going if someone has a

1186
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:32,850
really compelling account that they want

1187
00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:35,730
to share with the world absolutely final

1188
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:37,680
words project out Oregon it will be up

1189
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:39,810
for many years and there's also lots of

1190
00:50:43,940 --> 00:50:42,090
information too if people want to just

1191
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:43,950
take a look and get to know more about

1192
00:50:49,460 --> 00:50:46,650
the material well again our guest has

1193
00:50:51,980 --> 00:50:49,470
been Lisa smart this is fantastic work

1194
00:50:54,620 --> 00:50:51,990
groundbreaking work Thank You Alan

1195
00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:54,630
just to be congratulated I congratulate

1196
00:51:00,920 --> 00:50:58,650
you thank you thanks again to Lisa for

1197
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:00,930
joining me today on skeptic oh I guess

1198
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:02,850
the one question I'd T up from this

1199
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:04,740
interview when I can it add it at the

1200
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:07,680
beginning and that is what does Lisa's

1201
00:51:13,940 --> 00:51:10,710
work regarding these final words tell us

1202
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:13,950
about the nature of the afterlife I

1203
00:51:17,570 --> 00:51:16,050
think it raises some really interesting

1204
00:51:19,550 --> 00:51:17,580
questions I'd like to hear what you

1205
00:51:21,530 --> 00:51:19,560
think of course the place to do it

1206
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:21,540
my favorite place for you to do it is

1207
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:23,850
through the skeptical forum which you

1208
00:51:30,290 --> 00:51:25,650
can get through through the sceptical

1209
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:30,300
website at ske P tik Oh calm while

1210
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:33,450
you're there you can of course download

1211
00:51:39,140 --> 00:51:36,570
any of the 350 previous episodes of

1212
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:39,150
skeptical as you please just pick up the

1213
00:51:44,090 --> 00:51:41,400
ones you like download them past show

1214
00:51:46,310 --> 00:51:44,100
section there and then you can also

1215
00:51:48,350 --> 00:51:46,320
connect over the forum and connect with

1216
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:48,360
some of us who will be talking after the

1217
00:51:52,250 --> 00:51:50,490
show and I certainly hopefully so will

1218
00:51:55,610 --> 00:51:52,260
join us there as well

1219
00:51:58,310 --> 00:51:55,620
so if that's at all interesting to you

1220
00:51:59,950 --> 00:51:58,320
please do it I love when people connect

1221
00:52:02,540 --> 00:51:59,960
with me and connect with the show

1222
00:52:03,590 --> 00:52:02,550
through the forum if you don't if you

1223
00:52:06,110 --> 00:52:03,600
just want to send me an email or

1224
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:06,120
whatever that's fine as well so I have a

1225
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:07,920
number of shows coming up a lot of

1226
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:11,310
things going on who knows what could be

1227
00:52:16,250 --> 00:52:14,010
next I do hope you stay with me for all